18.Sep.1999
Colin-Stewart Bridge Deady by eMail
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KOSH summary 26
After KOSH has resolved the problems with the DNS entry, and the mailing lists
have been reactivated, we are again supplied with the summaries from the MLs.
The KOSH website is available again. The URL is
www.gpwebb.freeserve.co.uk/kosh/.
KOSH [Kommunity Orientated Software Hardware]
Weekly Summary
Week Commencing: 11th September 1999
Number: 026
Mailing List: kosh-general@icon2.iconimaging.net
In the mailing list this week, the following items were discussed.
I'm happy to receive comments on this summary (and corrections if I have made
mistakes). Email me (Bridge) at kosh-scribe@mythicz.u-net.com
Well it has been a while - the last summary was in June when kosh.net vanished.
We now have access to the same kosh-general mailing list but it is located at
kosh-general@icon2.iconimaging.net which in fact is the same as "kosh.net". On
that note it is important to a) send messages to the icon2 address and b) when
replying to messages check your "Send to:" field to make sure it says icon2 as
it has a habit of filling in "kosh.net" which doesn't work (this has been
demonstrated on a number of email packages).
kosh-general@iconimaging.net also works now but the above is still relevant for
people replying to older messages.
I am also posting summary 25 with this one (in a separate file in case you want
to avoid it!) as a reminder of what was going on back in June.
Anyway, on with the show!
a)
Subject: KOSH is back!
Summary of debate: It never really went away, it just went a bit quiet for a
while. Please note the following items for KOSH:
1) Email address is kosh-general@icon2.iconimaging.net (read
the introduction above for more information) BUT
kosh-general@iconimaging.net works without all the problems
described above so try this instead if you are creating new
mail (thanks to Jason Radford for fixing this).
2) The KOSH website is located on a mirror at
http://www.gpwebb.freeserve.co.uk/kosh/index.html
3) The KOSH booklist remains at
http://www.snowcrash.u-net.com/kosh/booklist.html and is
well worth a look through.
4) If you have a query such as "where did that bit of KOSH
info go?" then please email me (Bridge) at
kosh.scribe@mythicz.u-net.com and I'll either have it to
hand or know someone that does.
b)
Subject: New method for summaries
Summary of debate: An alternative interactive internet based way of producing
summaries is being looked at. The beginnings of this can be
seen at http://www.tele2.co.uk/~flump/kosh/ and mention on
the ML of things like Perl and Mason has occurred.
c)
Subject: Second user survey draft
Summary of debate: This is where we left off back in June discussing the User
Summary that Greg and co were working on. I'm leaving
summarising it off of this summary as it sort of took over
back in June and I'm going to keep this summary general:P
Suffice to say all is progressing well. Thank to Greg for
getting this one started again.
d)
Subject: 3D+ data manipulation
Summary of subject: A bit back I was discussing with Greg Webb and John
Chandler my ideas for 3D data manipulation. At the moment
we all have cosy spreadsheets that let you enter data on
the x and y planes (columns and rows). However in every day
usage I find this constricting as I need a visual (and not
just mathematical) way to place data on x,y and z planes.
While this can be done with conventional spreadsheets just
about if you have to y-axis on the resulting graphs it
hardly makes for perfection. The idea is that perhaps apps
in KOSH can be written to take 3D (or more - although
changes over time normally gets stuck on the x-axis in
conventional spreadsheets) data sets and be able to view
them on screen, rotating through them, using pan, scan and
zoom to be able to view the whole thing in any way you
want. Now this may only be possible in a "3d" or
holographic monitor - but maybe not as the eye can easily
be tricked.
It was suggested that there may be people out there that
actually need nD data manipulation tools - and this could
well be a killer app for KOSH.
e)
Subject: RF bugs KOSH?
Summary of debate: A way to make computers transmit RF information by executing
code to put data on a bus in a certain pattern has been
figured out. The potential for using this to bug people's
machines with nothing more complicated than a small software
agent and a cheap radio could well be a real problem for
KOSH if we decide to implement this type of technology (and
why not - after all KOSH is inclusive).
What sort of steps could we take to plug this potential
problem but still allow this technology to be used in KOSH?
It was suggested that a system of public and private keys
could be used to plug this hole as a transmitting system
would have to send an underlying carrier wave containing a
valid key for the recipient machine to "listen" and act on
the main message.
f)
Subject: EROS
Summary of debate: An interesting URL of http://www.eros-os.org was mentioned
which people may want to take a look at.
g)
Subject: IMPORTANT! All KOSH Working group progress managers and maintaners
please read.
Summary of debate: A direct cross-list post from Greg that is important for the
above to read:
We seem to be having difficulties contacting our working group progress
manager and maintainer of our supporters list, so we haven't been able
to get up-to-date information on either for some time. If you're
involved with a working group or have registered your interest as a
supporter and are not shown here then please get in touch so we can
update the necessary details.
The relevant page to check whether you're registered is
http://www.gpwebb.freeserve.co.uk/kosh/kommunity/index.html and I'd
appreciate any resulting information coming in to me.
Thanks,
Greg
h)
Subject: Open KOSH
Summary of debate: Following an idea myself and others had on the nature of
KOSH towards other competing systems, Greg Webb (yep it's
that man again!) has compiled an article on this. The
general jist is that if KOSH is open about its weaknesses as
well as its strengths particularly when at computer shows
then we will generate a more honest atmosphere with users
whom KOSH is designed to serve (and not control unlike
certain other systems out there).
To demonstrate openness, an example given is that at a
computer show we could line up several computers running
(for example) AmigaOS, KOSH, Linux, Windows and MacOS and
then demonstrate each to its full potential. The conclusion
hopefully will be that KOSH is better than the rest for the
user to get the "thing" to do what they want. However if
KOSH fouls up and another system turns out better at
performing a particular function we admit this openly and go
away and fix the problem on KOSH.
See the KOSH URL for the full interesting text (and it does
make a good read - some very thought provoking things in
there).
i)
Subject: KOSH and Convergence International
Summary of debate: John Chandler has given a short KOSH update to James Sears
for inclusion in the next Convergence international
newsletter. James has offered assistance to KOSH to get
around the kosh.net DNS problem (thanks James).
j)
Subject: Re-announcing KOSH
Summary of debate: If anyone has -any- computer contacts that they can email to
say "KOSH is back at and " then please do so.
Only thing is that we may want to coordinate this as we
could end up bombarding some unsuspecting person. I've
emailed Amiga Format (Ben Vost) and am contacting
Petra Struck of http://www.amiga-news.de .
John has contacted Convergence International (see above).
Can anyone else offer up other contacts?
k)
Subject: Fleecy's Lentil
Summary of debate: Fleecy Moss and John Karcher are working on Lentil which (I
think from my limited understanding) is a logical and formal
language being developed due to reservations about IDL. They
are currently designing a Java tool that allows entities to
be designed and maintained. More details to follow in the
fullness of time.
l)
Subject: Dave Haynie and the Object Sea
Summary of debate: Someone emailed me and told me Dave is still working on the
above which is a jolly good thing. (For those doubters out
there - see KOSH is coming back to life after... well not
really dying in the first place).
m)
Subject: KOSH Owls
Summary of debate: Gary Peake of http://www.OwlNet.net offered the email
address kosh-list@owlnet.net (thanks Gary). I don't know if
this is up and running or if we are sticking with icon2.
Watch this space for more info next week hopefully.
n)
Subject: KOSH FAQs
Summary of debate: Greg Webb has written some but more are needed on anything
related (or vaguely related) to KOSH. Offers of assistance
to greg@gpwebb.freeserve.co.uk please.
o)
Subject: Multiprocessing KOSH
Summary of debate: A direct quote from Greg here which is interesting:
Amiga.org are reporting that there's a patent application from Amiga
Development on IBM's patents server covering multiprocessor bits:
At least two clusters of CPUs are present in a multiprocessor computer
system. Each CPU cluster has a given number of CPUs, each CPU having an
associated ID such as an ID number. An additional ID number, not
associated with a CPU in the same cluster, is associated with the
opposite CPU cluster that appears to the original cluster as a "phantom"
processor. A round-robin bus arbitration scheme allows ordered ownership
of a common bus within a first cluster until the ID reaches the
"phantom" processor, at which time bus ownership passes to a CPU in the
second cluster. This arrangement is preferably symmetric, so that when a
CPU from the first cluster requests ownership of the bus, it is granted
bus ownership by virtue of the first cluster's appearance to the second
cluster as a "phantom" CPU.
Does this sound useful to our hardware people?
See: http://amiga.org/articles/1999/0901-aipatents.shtml
p)
Subject: New KOSH mirror site
Summary of debate: A new mirror site for KOSH can be found at
http://kosh.convergence.org/ and you'll find some space
kindly donated by http://www.convergence.org/ This should be
quicker than the current location (again thanks to
Convergence International for their kind help with this).
q)
Subject: Amiga, KOSH and QNX
Summary of debate: With Amiga declaring that they are not going to make
hardware but concentrate on software perhaps should switch
the idea of one of the hosts for KOSH being AmigaOS to QNX.
If we stay with Amiga which from recent announcements seems
to be going to be hosted over other things then we end up
with the silly situation of base OS with 2 levels of hosting
on top.
Please note that this is only in reference to AmigaNG and not
"Classic" which a number of people have said we should port
to. Also note there is no change with the idea of hosting on
Linux and Windows.
r)
Subject: AmiJoe and KOSH
Summary of debate: With Met@Box producing the AmiJoe accelerator for the A4000
perhaps KOSH should consider porting a hosted version
specifically to take advantage of this and other PPC Amigas?
s)
Subject: Transmeta and KOSH
Summary of debate: Simple question - Is Transmeta of any use to KOSH?
t)
Subject: Team Amiga, Phoenix Platform Consortium and KOSH
Summary of debate: A cross-ML posting with two things of interest:
To join Team Amiga ML send an email to Gary Peak TA
coordinator at gpeake@texas.net with the subject of
"join TA request" and your personal details. All info
provided by you on joining will be for internal TA/TAC use
only.
Secondly here is a snippet from the rest of the email which
is very interesting for KOSH although please note that there
were mixed feelings about what Phoenix is trying to do:
The Phoenix Platform Consortium will assume responsibility for aid and
recommendation for reference platforms for the Amiga users who wish to
upgrade their present Amigas, as we establish an open migration path
to a new platform. That platform will in spirit and in feel be a new
Amiga experience while incorporating and surpassing the features found
on the desktop elsewhere today.
As information becomes available it will be posted on mailing lists,
newsgroups, and at the following website: http://owlnet.net/phoenix/
which will be up shortly. This announcement is freely repostable.
u)
Subject: KOSH Subscribers
Summary of debate: There is a problem at the moment that some KOSHans are not
receiving emails via the icon2 email address we are using.
Obviously this creates a problem. Please can you therefore
email Greg Webb at greg@gpwebb.freeserve.co.uk and let him
know that you are getting the emails. We can then coordinate
a "rescue package" to contact other KOSHans who have been
dropped off of the list (by comparing the respondents to
Greg with the kosh-general@kosh.net ML subscribee list that
we have).
v)
Subject: Why KOSH?
Summary of debate: I seem to be quoting a lot in full this week but why not -
its not as though there have been many summaries to read
since June. Here is a quote from Greg Webb (does this guy do
anything but KOSH? - all credit due to him!) which I
particularly like:
KOSH isn't just a software engineering project. The thing that really
sets us apart and makes me particularly fond of this project - for those
who hadn't noticed ;) - is the ideology behind it. We're not in this
just to produce something fantastic, we're in it to produce something
for the community. So, rather than a more traditional corporate
structure, we're set up so that KOSH is owned (when these considerations
actually mean anything) by a combination of those who've developed it
(as in us guys), those who own KOSH boxes and those who sell KOSH boxes.
No corporate investors running this for financial gain, just a community
of people who want to avoid the horrific problems that the Amiga
platform has suffered. So, we're set up to do everything we can to make
that impossible.
Greg
w)
Subject: New hardware from IBM
Summary of debate: IBM recently announced availability of PPC motherboard
designs. This should help start up Mac clones again (with
MacOS X on UNIX/NeXT). Motorola have announced PPC G5 (64
and 32 bit products, new pipeline, new bus topology, 2GHz+)
and G6. This hardware could be used for KOSH systems.
x)
Subject: TransAM/One
Summary of debate: Interest was expressed on the list for Met@Box to start up
the TransAM/One project again as this would present a very
interesting hardware opportunity for KOSH (noting it would
not be the only hardware solution - inclusive but not
exclusive...)
From: "Colin-Stewart Bridge Deady" csbdeady@mythicz.u-net.com
Date: 18 Sep 99 11:52:33 +0000
Subject: [KOSH] Summary 25 to go with 26
To: kosh-general@iconimaging.net
Reply-To: kosh-general@iconimaging.net
As promissed here is summary 25 to go with 26 so we can remember what
was going on in June...
-Bridge
-----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.mythicz.u-net.com | DT-MUD:sunsite.auc.dk:4242
Amigan | Vegan | KOSHan - Go for a swim in the object sea,
http://www.gpwebb.freeserve.co.uk/kosh/index.html
Storm of the Eye RPG GUI-PBEM http://www.2bp.com/
-----------------------------------------------------------
KOSH [Kommunity Orientated Software Hardware]
Weekly Summary
Week Commencing: 12th June 1999
Number: 025
Mailing List: kosh-general
In the mailing list this week, the following items were discussed. Please do
not email the scribe regarding any of these topics, it is not his job to answer
these questions but merely to report the topics of conversation. If you have
any queries about this summary, please email ben@kosh.net, stating the Summary
Number, and Mailing List Name, and he will try to answer your queries.
a)
Subject: Community involvement in Linux - an example for KOSH?
Summary of debate: Linux stresses community involvement and feedback. See
http://www.kde.org - from the website can be seen where KOSH
could go in terms of feed back mechanisms (documentation,
FAQ, wish list, bug reports, etc).
b)
Subject: KOSH Installation
Summary of debate: It was pointed out that KOSH being easy to install and
working first time will present a good first impression to a
user. It was also mentioned that subsequent usage and
alteration of the system should also maintain the good
impression.
c)
Subject: Second User Survey Draft
Summary of debate: The KOSH Survey WG released the second version of its User
Survey Questionnaire. Changes incorporated included an
additional section on disabilities and a note that personal
questions are completely optional and various other
amendments.
See the email from Greg Webb (greg@gpwebb.freeserve.co.uk)
date 14/06 and entitled "[KOSH] Second survey draft" for the
full text.
This again generated a large number of replies with many
constructive comments on the survey. Even though the survey
is developing very well a number of areas such as the
personal questions section were felt in need of further
development. Even so, a big thanks to all the hard work that
the Survey WG have put in to this project.
One key point for the future is that there will most likely
be a "Developers Survey" and therefore the one we are
creating at the moment does not need to cover everything.
However we do note that developers are users and vice versa.
I won't detail all the different comments on the second
draft as I'm sure the Survey WG will be taking their own
notes and I don't want to take up the entire summary with
it. If you're interested in the work of that group please
feel free to get involved!
c)
Subject: Volunteers to translate the survey to other languages.
Summary of debate: As well as Thomas Jensen offering to do a Danish translation
of the survey, Philippe 'Elwood' Ferucci has volunteered to
do a French version. Thanks to both of you.
If anyone else would be able to translate the Survey into
other languages when it is completed please would they make
themselves known to kosh-general@kosh.net
d)
Subject: Deadlocking in KOSH
Summary of debate: The following questions were posed:
"How will Deadlock (resource circularity, mutual exclusion,
hold&wait) be dealt with? In current OSes it is not a
serious problem because there are not many places it can
occur - but in a sea of objects all offering services, the
possibility for deadlock must increase 1000 (or a million?)
fold... [Without this] KOSH...won't work for more than a few
minutes before the entire system freezes up solid under
heavy load".
Apparently Unix ignores deadlock and hopes it will go away,
working on the grounds that it does not happen all that
often. Hopefully a better solution will be found in KOSH?
There are plenty of ways to prevent deadlocks from ever
ocurring by being careful about how you hand out resources
and checking with process what resources they could
conceivably need.
Alternatively getting rid of "hold & wait" just like in
current filing systems could be the way to solve this. The
OS can be set up so that, if a process wants some resources,
it has to give up others.
A deadlocking object in the resource manager was proposed.
e)
Subject: Atari computers and MiNT
Summary of debate: It was mentioned that those using Atari computers now use
MiNT which has multitasking and is POSIX compliant. See
http://www.altos.org.uk/mint/index.html which has a guide to
FreeMiNT. MiNT is a hybrid of Unix and TOS. Perhaps this has
some ideas that are relevant to KOSH.
f)
Subject: KOSH website location
Summary of debate: Just in case you missed it, the most up-to-date version of the
website is currently at http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~ssu97gw/kosh/
It should move to kosh.net/ soonish.
g)
Subject: Developing users
Summary of debate: In reference to the User Survey it was mentioned that
developers and users are often the same people. If we could
make it so that in KOSH every user could behave as a
developer at any time we would make the system much more
accessible. We would thus avoid creating an unnatural
separation and scare people into a division between the two.
We must be careful not to scare off people who just want to
be users.
h)
Subject: EPOC32
Summary of debate: The Psion 5 keyboard being nice to type on compared to other
palmtops was mentioned and this generated a comment that
EPOC32 has some nice things in it that KOSH may like to look
at (scribe's note: presumably EPOC32 is an OS and not a
keyboard though).
i)
Subject: KOSH FAQ
Summary of debate: "Our Greg" has asked he could have some questions to put
into the KOSH FAQ please. Oh and Frequently given answers
would be nice as well.
j)
Subject: Sheep and #HHHHHH
Summary of debate: There was lots of discussion on sheep and dodgy HTML code
involving #HHHHHH which gives lots of interesting results
depending on where you see it - oh and watching the Simpsons
when one should be working on one's studies was also
mentioned... and that's all I'm saying about this:P (ps)
[News message: 18. Sep. 1999, 08:00] [Comments: 0]
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