From:     "Colin-Stewart Bridge Deady" csbdeady@mythicz.u-net.com
Date:     21 Nov 99 20:15:46 +0000
Subject:  [KOSH] Summary 28
To:       kosh-general@iconimaging.net
Reply-To: kosh-general@iconimaging.net

Hi all

Enclosed is Summary no. 28 - at last. Apologies for the long wait.

I feel I may not have done justice to a couple of the concepts present
- if so please post a reply with suggested ammendments and I'll
incorporate them.

-Bridge

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http://www.mythicz.u-net.com | DT-MUD:sunsite.auc.dk:4242
Amigan | Vegan | KOSHan - "across the crocodile pond with
nitroglycerine on a pogo stick" http://www.iconimaging.net/kosh/
===========================================================


2: ksum28.txt
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KOSH [Kommunity Orientated Software Hardware]

Summary

Inclusive of Dates: 25th September 1999 to 20th November 1999

Number: 028

Mailing List: kosh-general@iconimaging.net

I'm happy to receive comments on this summary (and corrections if I have made
mistakes). Email me (Bridge) at kosh-scribe@mythicz.u-net.com

In the mailing list these last few weeks, the following items were discussed.


a)

Subject: Formalising past KOSH discussions

Summary of debate: It was discussed at length that there is a need to look over
                   past debates on items relevant to KOSH and to present these
                   in a more formal manner. One of the main reasons for this is
                   in order to prevent information relevant to KOSH from being
                   lost in historical records. Instead we would like to take
                   these ideas and cement them into positive feedback for the
                   KOSH project as a whole as an aid to providing further
                   direction for KOSH.

                   In order to accomplish this, it was suggested that voluntary
                   Working Groups be organised, each of which would present a
                   document on a selected topic - based mainly (but not
                   exclusively) on the summaries and other documents from the
                   various mailing lists.

                   Alternatively a more fluid approach could be used in which
                   each person who was interested in contributing to a document
                   on a particular subject would hold the document for a week
                   or two at a time, add their own ideas and correct the
                   previous holder's mistakes (changes being discussed and
                   agreed to by both parties), then pass it on to the next
                   person. When passed around a turn without getting any more
                   changes, the document would be trimmed, signed and posted on
                   the ML where a few additional changes could take place
                   before it is put on the website.

                   It was suggested that working groups can on occasion be
                   inefficient due to large numbers of people being involved.
                   Therefore perhaps 3-6 people should be the limit per topic.

                   A small group of KOSHans is looking into this.


b)

Subject: KOSH Introductory Website

Summary of debate: Marcus Petersson has written some material for an
                   introductory website to KoshOS (thanks Marcus) - if anyone
                   has any information which would be useful for this worthy
                   project please contact Marcus via the ML.


c)

Subject: Connection troubles resolved

Summary of debate: Between the last summary and this one there have been a
                   couple of instances when access to
                   kosh-general@iconimaging.net vanished. Thanks to Jason
                   Radford for putting the bits back in place. Certainly for
                   the last few weeks there have been no connection problems
                   (to my knowledge).


d)

Subject: GPL

Summary of debate: The idea of the Gnu Public Licence was discussed in
                   depth. It was suggested that KOSH should be put into GPL,
                   and this received a mixed response. It was stated that
                   distributing GPL items along with private items is OK as
                   long as clear notices are maintained in the appropriate
                   places.

                   It was further stated that any software programs
                   including or derived from GPL source must be covered by the
                   GPL itself. That doesn't mean that whole suites would become
                   GPL, but would mean that the relevant subsystem would.

                   It was felt by some that GPL could be contrary to the aims
                   of KOSH and therefore should be avoided.

                   However there is also the LGPL or Library Gnu Public Licence
                   which applies to libraries. This licence exist to guarantee
                   that the user still has the ability to modify the library
                   under LGPL but not the product using the library (although
                   the product can be GPL).

                   You can charge for distributing LGPL and GPL software
                   as long as this is limited to things like covering media and
                   postage costs for example.

                   See http://www.gnu.org for more information on Gnu.

                   This debate (as with many) is set to continue.


e)

Subject: KOSH Contacts database

Summary of debate: Suggested was a contacts database for KOSH that would
                   include all "known" KOSHans, others who have a slight
                   interest, developers, newspapers, magazines, etc.

                   This would be useful in two ways. Firstly (and obviously)
                   that it would enable easy dissemination of information
                   relevant to KOSH. Secondly it would be a tool to demonstrate
                   that KOSH is definitely alive and well.

                   Part of this information is available at
                   http://www.iconimaging.net/kosh/kommunity/developers.html


f)

Subject: K and C

Summary of debate: For those that may be wondering, "Kommunity" on the KOSH
                   website is now "Community" due to Babelfish translation
                   problems. KOSH is still KOSH and not COSH as a COSH involves
                   to clubbing people.


g)

Subject: "KOSH UK" meet.

Summary of debate: John Chandler and Greg Webb and I (Bridge Deady) seem to
                   have become "KOSH UK" in that we are all ahem in the UK,
                   are thinking of KOSH at World of Amiga 2000 in the UK and
                   we also recently took part in a KOSH Q&A session via IRC
                   hosted at the Cologne Fair in Germany.

                   If anyone else is in the UK (or abroad and is willing to
                   fly over) and is interested in a "get together" sometime
                   please let us know as this is something we are thinking of.


h)

Subject: User Interface Website

Summary of debate: See http://www.iarchitect.com/mshame.htm which covers
                   examples of good and bad user interface design.


i)

Subject: KOSH Virtual Credits and taxation

Summary of debate: A query was raised concerning tax laws in countries such as
                   the UK and the KOSH Virtual Credits scheme. In the UK
                   (amongst other countries presumably) virtual credits would
                   be liable for tax but that tax would have to paid in UK
                   pounds sterling.

                   It was discussed that if sales are made to EC countries
                   above a certain threshold (apr £70,000 p.a. for the UK) then
                   the seller must register for VAT in that country.

                   This is something to bare in mind but won't become an issue
                   for a while yet.


j)

Subject: KOSH web site updated

Summary of debate: The KOSH website at http://kosh.convergence.org and
                   http://www.iconimaging,net/kosh amongst others has been
                   updated a number of times since the last summary. Feel free
                   to have a quick browse.


k)

Subject: EROS goes GPL

Summary of debate: EROS have gone GPL. See:
                   http://www.eros-os.org/ and for a discussion on this,
                   http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/10/28/0151212&mode=nes


l)

Subject: Licencing parts of KOSH

Summary of debate: It was suggested that we could make a simple policy over
                   licensing of our software. Whenever any module is withdrawn
                   from our distribution it could be put on a countdown for a
                   fixed period. We have the duration of that period to reverse
                   the decision and put it back in under our own terms, but
                   once that period has expired, the source and binary are
                   released under a simple freeware licence.

                   A similar idea was previously discussed in that software
                   developed for KOSH could be given a particular licence that
                   stated the software would lapse into the public domain if
                   certain criteria had not been fulfilled.

                   At the very least the sources released would be of
                   educational use and would hopefully spark off further
                   development. This idea of software licencing received a
                   favourable response from those that commented on it.

                   It was further suggested that some sort of "auction" of old
                   code could take place to generate funds for KOSH (and the
                   author of the code) before it was placed into a free-ish
                   -ware state. This could however allow large corporations to
                   take over KOSH and therefore a limit on the size of bids
                   would be needed. Even so this could cause problems.

                   If an "auction" was implemented then to prevent corporations
                   from buying code and then leaving it dormant a clause in the
                   auction could be that if a new version of the code updated
                   from the original is not forthcoming after a specified time
                   then the code reverts to being the property of KOSH.

                   Overall the idea of code becoming freeware under a licence
                   as discussed initially received a more favourable response
                   than that of an "auction" based system. None of this is
                   supposed to remove the rights programmers have over their
                   own code.

                   It was then suggested that a version of the Mozilla Public
                   Licence may be appropriate. This allows retention of
                   copyright but opens up the potential for others to develop
                   the code.


m)

Subject: KAROS (KOSH hosted on AROS)

Summary of debate: A discussion on hosting KOSH on AROS was held. At least
                   two ideas were forthcoming:

                   1) AROS can either run standalone or on another OS such as
                   KOSH (once KOSH itself is running of course),

                   2) AROS could be used as  a basic services provider for
                   KOSH allowing us to implement other things without having to
                   spend a large amount of time getting a filesystem, device
                   drivers, etc written first.

                   This is not to detract from the thoughts on hosting KOSH on
                   Linux, AmigaOS, MacOS, Win32, etc. but merely adds another
                   possibility.

                   AROS is available from: ftp://www.aros.org/pub/aros/


n)

Subject: Distribution format

Summary of debate: It was suggested that KOSH could be distributed on DVD
                   rather than CD which would then enable a program on the DVD
                   to create a hosted-KOSH CD for any given OS. This would
                   enable one DVD to contain versions of KOSH for a large
                   number of systems.

                   However it is hoped that KOSH will be compact enough not to
                   require a DVD for distribution! It was also mentioned that
                   DVD is still not commmonplace everywhere.


o)

Subject: Linux, GPL and KOSH

Summary of debate: It was queried as to whether an OS running hosted through
                   Linux automatically GPL'd? While the LGPL only covers the
                   module concerned, the GPL infects everything it touches.


p)

Subject: KOSH featured at the Cologne Fair.

Summary of debate: KOSH were kindly invited by Hendrik Hoener of Amiga UGN
                   Germany to take a slot in an IRC conference that they are
                   hosting during the Cologne fair. We were represented by Greg
                   Webb, John Chandler and myself (Bridge Deady). We were
                   slotted in directly after Petro Tyschtschenko of Amiga which
                   provided us with a prominent mid-afternoon position.

                   The log of the session, while being a little bit difficult
                   to follow in places (due to three people answering different
                   questions at the same time) can be found at
                   http://ugn.amiga.org/events/hew99.shtml - (Scribe's note: if
                   it becomes unavailable, email me and I'll send you a copy).

                   The main issue that came to light was that a lot of people
                   simply did not know what KOSH is. We fielded a lot of
                   questions to this effect. We gave plenty of references to
                   the website and this ML as well as providing both short and
                   lengthy descriptions.

                   Various other items of great relevance were discussed - and
                   it was mentioned to those online at the time that KOSH will
                   consider these. There will be a threaded summary of the
                   proceedings available from myself in the near future which
                   we can all digest.


q)

Subject: Formalising documentation of past discussions

Summary of debate: Greg Webb, John Chandler and Marcus Petersson have been
                   discussing a proposal for a system to make it easier for
                   more than one person to work on a document. If you would
                   like to be involved in this please contact one of the above
                   via the ML.


r)

Subject: KOSH IRC

Summary of debate: A KOSH IRC session in the nearish future was proposed. This
                   is under consideration.


s)

Subject: KOSH at World of Amiga 2000

Summary of debate: This has been suggested on numerous occasions and hopefully
                   we will have more news on this idea soon.


t)

Subject: Protecting systems with an "undo" feature

Summary of debate: It was suggested that
                   http://www.powerquest.com/en/secondchance/index.html and
                   http://www.go-back.co.uk/start.htm should interest people as
                   they do this. GoBack may be a better model to work from as
                   it uses it's own partition structure to store the data,
                   while SecondChance just uses ordinary files which need
                   clearing out and cannot be so easily overwritten if the user
                   needs the space.