KOSH [Kommunity Orientated Software Hardware]

Weekly Summary

Week Commencing: 11th September 1999

Number: 026

Mailing List: kosh-general@icon2.iconimaging.net

In the mailing list this week, the following items were discussed.

I'm happy to receive comments on this summary (and corrections if I have made
mistakes). Email me (Bridge) at kosh-scribe@mythicz.u-net.com

Well it has been a while - the last summary was in June when kosh.net vanished.
We now have access to the same kosh-general mailing list but it is located at
kosh-general@icon2.iconimaging.net which in fact is the same as "kosh.net". On
that note it is important to a) send messages to the icon2 address and b) when
replying to messages check your "Send to:" field to make sure it says icon2 as
it has a habit of filling in "kosh.net" which doesn't work (this has been
demonstrated on a number of email packages).

kosh-general@iconimaging.net also works now but the above is still relevant for
people replying to older messages.

I am also posting summary 25 with this one (in a separate file in case you want
to avoid it!) as a reminder of what was going on back in June.

Anyway, on with the show!


a)

Subject: KOSH is back!

Summary of debate: It never really went away, it just went a bit quiet for a
                   while. Please note the following items for KOSH:

                   1) Email address is kosh-general@icon2.iconimaging.net (read
                   the introduction above for more information) BUT
                   kosh-general@iconimaging.net works without all the problems
                   described above so try this instead if you are creating new
                   mail (thanks to Jason Radford for fixing this).

                   2) The KOSH website is located on a mirror at
                   http://www.gpwebb.freeserve.co.uk/kosh/index.html

                   3) The KOSH booklist remains at
                   http://www.snowcrash.u-net.com/kosh/booklist.html and is
                   well worth a look through.

                   4) If you have a query such as "where did that bit of KOSH
                   info go?" then please email me (Bridge) at
                   kosh.scribe@mythicz.u-net.com and I'll either have it to
                   hand or know someone that does.


b)

Subject: New method for summaries

Summary of debate: An alternative interactive internet based way of producing
                   summaries is being looked at. The beginnings of this can be
                   seen at http://www.tele2.co.uk/~flump/kosh/ and mention on
                   the ML of things like Perl and Mason has occurred.

c)

Subject: Second user survey draft

Summary of debate: This is where we left off back in June discussing the User
                   Summary that Greg and co were working on. I'm leaving
                   summarising it off of this summary as it sort of took over
                   back in June and I'm going to keep this summary general:P
                   Suffice to say all is progressing well. Thank to Greg for
                   getting this one started again.


d)

Subject: 3D+ data manipulation

Summary of subject: A bit back I was discussing with Greg Webb and John
                    Chandler my ideas for 3D data manipulation. At the moment
                    we all have cosy spreadsheets that let you enter data on
                    the x and y planes (columns and rows). However in every day
                    usage I find this constricting as I need a visual (and not
                    just mathematical) way to place data on x,y and z planes.
                    While this can be done with conventional spreadsheets just
                    about if you have to y-axis on the resulting graphs it
                    hardly makes for perfection. The idea is that perhaps apps
                    in KOSH can be written to take 3D (or more - although
                    changes over time normally gets stuck on the x-axis in
                    conventional spreadsheets) data sets and be able to view
                    them on screen, rotating through them, using pan, scan and
                    zoom to be able to view the whole thing in any way you
                    want. Now this may only be possible in a "3d" or
                    holographic monitor - but maybe not as the eye can easily
                    be tricked.

                    It was suggested that there may be people out there that
                    actually need nD data manipulation tools - and this could
                    well be a killer app for KOSH.


e)

Subject: RF bugs KOSH?

Summary of debate: A way to make computers transmit RF information by executing
                   code to put data on a bus in a certain pattern has been
                   figured out. The potential for using this to bug people's
                   machines with nothing more complicated than a small software
                   agent and a cheap radio could well be a real problem for
                   KOSH if we decide to implement this type of technology (and
                   why not - after all KOSH is inclusive).

                   What sort of steps could we take to plug this potential
                   problem but still allow this technology to be used in KOSH?

                   It was suggested that a system of public and private keys
                   could be used to plug this hole as a transmitting system
                   would have to send an underlying carrier wave containing a
                   valid key for the recipient machine to "listen" and act on
                   the main message.


f)

Subject: EROS

Summary of debate: An interesting URL of http://www.eros-os.org was mentioned
                   which people may want to take a look at.


g)

Subject: IMPORTANT! All KOSH Working group progress managers and maintaners
         please read.

Summary of debate: A direct cross-list post from Greg that is important for the
                   above to read:

We seem to be having difficulties contacting our working group progress
manager and maintainer of our supporters list, so we haven't been able
to get up-to-date information on either for some time. If you're
involved with a working group or have registered your interest as a
supporter and are not shown here then please get in touch so we can
update the necessary details.

The relevant page to check whether you're registered is
http://www.gpwebb.freeserve.co.uk/kosh/kommunity/index.html and I'd
appreciate any resulting information coming in to me.

Thanks,
Greg


h)

Subject: Open KOSH

Summary of debate: Following an idea myself and others had on the nature of
                   KOSH towards other competing systems, Greg Webb (yep it's
                   that man again!) has compiled an article on this. The
                   general jist is that if KOSH is open about its weaknesses as
                   well as its strengths particularly when at computer shows
                   then we will generate a more honest atmosphere with users
                   whom KOSH is designed to serve (and not control unlike
                   certain other systems out there).

                   To demonstrate openness, an example given is that at a
                   computer show we could line up several computers running
                   (for example) AmigaOS, KOSH, Linux, Windows and MacOS and
                   then demonstrate each to its full potential. The conclusion
                   hopefully will be that KOSH is better than the rest for the
                   user to get the "thing" to do what they want. However if
                   KOSH fouls up and another system turns out better at
                   performing a particular function we admit this openly and go
                   away and fix the problem on KOSH.

                   See the KOSH URL for the full interesting text (and it does
                   make a good read - some very thought provoking things in
                   there).


i)

Subject: KOSH and Convergence International

Summary of debate: John Chandler has given a short KOSH update to James Sears
                   for inclusion in the next Convergence international
                   newsletter. James has offered assistance to KOSH to get
                   around the kosh.net DNS problem (thanks James).


j)

Subject: Re-announcing KOSH


Summary of debate: If anyone has -any- computer contacts that they can email to
                   say "KOSH is back at  and " then please do so.
                   Only thing is that we may want to coordinate this as we
                   could end up bombarding some unsuspecting person. I've
                   emailed Amiga Format (Ben Vost) and am contacting
                   Petra Struck of http://www.amiga-news.de .
                   John has contacted Convergence International (see above).
                   Can anyone else offer up other contacts?


k)

Subject: Fleecy's Lentil

Summary of debate: Fleecy Moss and John Karcher are working on Lentil which (I
                   think from my limited understanding) is a logical and formal
                   language being developed due to reservations about IDL. They
                   are currently designing a Java tool that allows entities to
                   be designed and maintained. More details to follow in the
                   fullness of time.


l)

Subject: Dave Haynie and the Object Sea

Summary of debate: Someone emailed me and told me Dave is still working on the
                   above which is a jolly good thing. (For those doubters out
                   there - see KOSH is coming back to life after... well not
                   really dying in the first place).


m)

Subject: KOSH Owls

Summary of debate: Gary Peake of http://www.OwlNet.net offered the email
                   address kosh-list@owlnet.net (thanks Gary). I don't know if
                   this is up and running or if we are sticking with icon2.
                   Watch this space for more info next week hopefully.


n)

Subject: KOSH FAQs

Summary of debate: Greg Webb has written some but more are needed on anything
                   related (or vaguely related) to KOSH. Offers of assistance
                   to greg@gpwebb.freeserve.co.uk please.


o)

Subject: Multiprocessing KOSH

Summary of debate: A direct quote from Greg here which is interesting:

Amiga.org are reporting that there's a patent application from Amiga
Development on IBM's patents server covering multiprocessor bits:

At least two clusters of CPUs are present in a multiprocessor computer
system. Each CPU cluster has a given number of CPUs, each CPU having an
associated ID such as an ID number. An additional ID number, not
associated with a CPU in the same cluster, is associated with the
opposite CPU cluster that appears to the original cluster as a "phantom"
processor. A round-robin bus arbitration scheme allows ordered ownership
of a common bus within a first cluster until the ID reaches the
"phantom" processor, at which time bus ownership passes to a CPU in the
second cluster. This arrangement is preferably symmetric, so that when a
CPU from the first cluster requests ownership of the bus, it is granted
bus ownership by virtue of the first cluster's appearance to the second
cluster as a "phantom" CPU.

Does this sound useful to our hardware people?

See: http://amiga.org/articles/1999/0901-aipatents.shtml


p)

Subject: New KOSH mirror site

Summary of debate: A new mirror site for KOSH can be found at
                   http://kosh.convergence.org/ and you'll find some space
                   kindly donated by http://www.convergence.org/ This should be
                   quicker than the current location (again thanks to
                   Convergence International for their kind help with this).


q)

Subject: Amiga, KOSH and QNX

Summary of debate: With Amiga declaring that they are not going to make
                   hardware but concentrate on software perhaps should switch
                   the idea of one of the hosts for KOSH being AmigaOS to QNX.
                   If we stay with Amiga which from recent announcements seems
                   to be going to be hosted over other things then we end up
                   with the silly situation of base OS with 2 levels of hosting
                   on top.

                   Please note that this is only in reference to AmigaNG and not
                   "Classic" which a number of people have said we should port
                   to. Also note there is no change with the idea of hosting on
                   Linux and Windows.


r)

Subject: AmiJoe and KOSH

Summary of debate: With Met@Box producing the AmiJoe accelerator for the A4000
                   perhaps KOSH should consider porting a hosted version
                   specifically to take advantage of this and other PPC Amigas?


s)

Subject: Transmeta and KOSH

Summary of debate: Simple question - Is Transmeta of any use to KOSH?


t)

Subject: Team Amiga, Phoenix Platform Consortium and KOSH

Summary of debate: A cross-ML posting with two things of interest:
                   To join Team Amiga ML send an email to Gary Peak TA
                   coordinator at gpeake@texas.net with the subject of
                   "join TA request" and your personal details. All info
                   provided by you on joining will be for internal TA/TAC use
                   only.

                   Secondly here is a snippet from the rest of the email which
                   is very interesting for KOSH although please note that there
                   were mixed feelings about what Phoenix is trying to do:

The Phoenix Platform Consortium will assume responsibility for aid and
recommendation for reference platforms for the Amiga users who wish to
upgrade their present Amigas, as we establish an open migration path
to a new platform. That platform will in spirit and in feel be a new
Amiga experience while incorporating and surpassing the features found
on the desktop elsewhere today.

As information becomes available it will be posted on mailing lists,
newsgroups, and at the following website: http://owlnet.net/phoenix/
which will be up shortly. This announcement is freely repostable.


u)

Subject: KOSH Subscribers

Summary of debate: There is a problem at the moment that some KOSHans are not
                   receiving emails via the icon2 email address we are using.
                   Obviously this creates a problem. Please can you therefore
                   email Greg Webb at greg@gpwebb.freeserve.co.uk and let him
                   know that you are getting the emails. We can then coordinate
                   a "rescue package" to contact other KOSHans who have been
                   dropped off of the list (by comparing the respondents to
                   Greg with the kosh-general@kosh.net ML subscribee list that
                   we have).


v)

Subject: Why KOSH?

Summary of debate: I seem to be quoting a lot in full this week but why not -
                   its not as though there have been many summaries to read
                   since June. Here is a quote from Greg Webb (does this guy do
                   anything but KOSH? - all credit due to him!) which I
                   particularly like:

KOSH isn't just a software engineering project. The thing that really
sets us apart and makes me particularly fond of this project - for those
who hadn't noticed ;) - is the ideology behind it. We're not in this
just to produce something fantastic, we're in it to produce something
for the community. So, rather than a more traditional corporate
structure, we're set up so that KOSH is owned (when these considerations
actually mean anything) by a combination of those who've developed it
(as in us guys), those who own KOSH boxes and those who sell KOSH boxes.
No corporate investors running this for financial gain, just a community
of people who want to avoid the horrific problems that the Amiga
platform has suffered. So, we're set up to do everything we can to make
that impossible.

Greg


w)

Subject: New hardware from IBM

Summary of debate: IBM recently announced availability of PPC motherboard
                   designs. This should help start up Mac clones again (with
                   MacOS X on UNIX/NeXT). Motorola have announced PPC G5 (64
                   and 32 bit products, new pipeline, new bus topology, 2GHz+)
                   and G6. This hardware could be used for KOSH systems.


x)

Subject: TransAM/One

Summary of debate: Interest was expressed on the list for Met@Box to start up
                   the TransAM/One project again as this would present a very
                   interesting hardware opportunity for KOSH (noting it would
                   not be the only hardware solution - inclusive but not
                   exclusive...)






From:     "Colin-Stewart Bridge Deady" csbdeady@mythicz.u-net.com
Date:     18 Sep 99 11:52:33 +0000
Subject:  [KOSH] Summary 25 to go with 26
To:       kosh-general@iconimaging.net
Reply-To: kosh-general@iconimaging.net

As promissed here is summary 25 to go with 26 so we can remember what
was going on in June...

-Bridge


-----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.mythicz.u-net.com | DT-MUD:sunsite.auc.dk:4242
Amigan | Vegan | KOSHan - Go for a swim in the object sea,
http://www.gpwebb.freeserve.co.uk/kosh/index.html
Storm of the Eye RPG GUI-PBEM http://www.2bp.com/


-----------------------------------------------------------
KOSH [Kommunity Orientated Software Hardware]

Weekly Summary

Week Commencing: 12th June 1999

Number: 025

Mailing List: kosh-general

In the mailing list this week, the following items were discussed. Please do
not email the scribe regarding any of these topics, it is not his job to answer
these questions but merely to report  the topics of conversation. If you have
any queries about this summary, please email ben@kosh.net, stating the Summary
Number, and Mailing List Name, and he will try to answer your queries.

a)

Subject: Community involvement in Linux - an example for KOSH?

Summary of debate: Linux stresses community involvement and feedback. See
                   http://www.kde.org - from the website can be seen where KOSH
                   could go in terms of feed back mechanisms (documentation,
                   FAQ, wish list, bug reports, etc).


b)

Subject: KOSH Installation

Summary of debate: It was pointed out that KOSH being easy to install and
                   working first time will present a good first impression to a
                   user. It was also mentioned that subsequent usage and
                   alteration of the system should also maintain the good
                   impression.


c)

Subject: Second User Survey Draft

Summary of debate: The KOSH Survey WG released the second version of its User
                   Survey Questionnaire. Changes incorporated included an
                   additional section on disabilities and a note that personal
                   questions are completely optional and various other
                   amendments.

                   See the email from Greg Webb (greg@gpwebb.freeserve.co.uk)
                   date 14/06 and entitled "[KOSH] Second survey draft" for the
                   full text.

                   This again generated a large number of replies with many
                   constructive comments on the survey. Even though the survey
                   is developing very well a number of areas such as the
                   personal questions section were felt in need of further
                   development. Even so, a big thanks to all the hard work that
                   the Survey WG have put in to this project.

                   One key point for the future is that there will most likely
                   be a "Developers Survey" and therefore the one we are
                   creating at the moment does not need to cover everything.
                   However we do note that developers are users and vice versa.

                   I won't detail all the different comments on the second
                   draft as I'm sure the Survey WG will be taking their own
                   notes and I don't want to take up the entire summary with
                   it. If you're interested in the work of that group please
                   feel free to get involved!

c)

Subject: Volunteers to translate the survey to other languages.

Summary of debate: As well as Thomas Jensen offering to do a Danish translation
                   of the survey, Philippe 'Elwood' Ferucci has volunteered to
                   do a French version. Thanks to both of you.

                   If anyone else would be able to translate the Survey into
                   other languages when it is completed please would they make
                   themselves known to kosh-general@kosh.net


d)

Subject: Deadlocking in KOSH

Summary of debate: The following questions were posed:
                   "How will Deadlock (resource circularity, mutual exclusion,
                   hold&wait) be dealt with?  In current OSes it is not a
                   serious problem because there are not many places it can
                   occur - but in a sea of objects all offering services, the
                   possibility for deadlock must increase 1000 (or a million?)
                   fold... [Without this] KOSH...won't work for more than a few
                   minutes before the entire system freezes up solid under
                   heavy load".

                   Apparently Unix ignores deadlock and hopes it will go away,
                   working on the grounds that it does not happen all that
                   often. Hopefully a better solution will be found in  KOSH?

                   There are plenty of ways to prevent deadlocks from ever
                   ocurring by being careful about how you hand out resources
                   and checking with process what resources they could
                   conceivably need.

                   Alternatively getting rid of "hold & wait" just like in
                   current filing systems could be the way to solve this. The
                   OS can be set up so that, if a process wants some resources,
                   it has to give up others.


                   A deadlocking object in the resource manager was proposed.


e)

Subject: Atari computers and MiNT

Summary of debate: It was mentioned that those using Atari computers now use
                   MiNT which has multitasking and is POSIX compliant. See
                   http://www.altos.org.uk/mint/index.html which has a guide to
                   FreeMiNT. MiNT is a hybrid of Unix and TOS. Perhaps this has
                   some ideas that are relevant to KOSH.


f)

Subject: KOSH website location

Summary of debate: Just in case you missed it, the most up-to-date version of the
                   website is currently at http://www.rdg.ac.uk/~ssu97gw/kosh/

                   It should move to kosh.net/ soonish.


g)

Subject: Developing users

Summary of debate: In reference to the User Survey it was mentioned that
                   developers and users are often the same people. If we could
                   make it so that in KOSH every user could behave as a
                   developer at any time we would make the system much more
                   accessible. We would thus avoid creating an  unnatural
                   separation and scare people into a division between the two.

                   We must be careful not to scare off people who just want to
                   be users.


h)

Subject: EPOC32

Summary of debate: The Psion 5 keyboard being nice to type on compared to other
                   palmtops was mentioned and this generated a comment that
                   EPOC32 has some nice things in it that KOSH may like to look
                   at (scribe's note: presumably EPOC32 is an OS and not a
                   keyboard though).


i)

Subject: KOSH FAQ

Summary of debate: "Our Greg" has asked he could have some questions to put
                   into the KOSH FAQ please. Oh and Frequently given answers
                   would be nice as well.


j)

Subject: Sheep and #HHHHHH

Summary of debate: There was lots of discussion on sheep and dodgy HTML code
                   involving #HHHHHH which gives lots of interesting results
                   depending on where you see it - oh and watching the Simpsons
                   when one should be working on one's studies was also
                   mentioned... and that's all I'm saying about this:P